Saturday, August 14, 2010

Atheists were never saved

Rough draft soon to be uploaded to youtube.



Were Atheists ever Christians?

This has been the hot topic lately on YouTube and as a former Christian myself I though I would give my thoughts on the matter. For those who are not aware there have been many videos lately made by Christian evangelists on YouTube dismissing the claims of former theists such as myself by saying we were never really a Christian. We were never really saved.

I have asked a few of them to back up their views with the Bible and a few have done so. I will be reading from the King James Version of the Bible and a link to read it for yourself on line is down below. I myself prefer reading from the New International Version but I will be using the King James Bible because that is the only bible many of these fundamentalists trust. Would I be wasting my time by doing a video on the King James Bible, leave a comment below.

One of the Bible verses quoted is Hebrews 6: starting with verse 4

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now this passage has a few interpretations. The first interpretation is that once you turn your back on Christ there is no going back. Another one is focused on the word “impossible” and that those who have turned their back on God were never really saved to begin with.

Well let me give you what I was taught as a baptist fundamentalist. The first thing to remember is that dividing of scripture by chapter and verse was first introduced by the King James Bible translators. Prior to this, there was no division. Therefore you must remember to read passages in context even though they are divided by chapter and verse.

The second thing you must consider is who is the intended audience of the book of Hebrews. The intended audience is Jewish Christians who were struggling to abandon the old covenant and to embrace fully the new covenenat. Furthermore it should be noted that we have no idea who wrote the book of Hebrews. Despite the lack of a known author most Christians accept Hebrews as scripture.

When you read Hebrews 6 along with the end of chapter 5 you do come to a different conclusion about what this passage is about. Lets start with verse 12

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So this passage shows the author’s frustration with the Jewish Christians not growing in their Christian faith.. The next chapter in verse 1 continues this point well

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

See the author is wanting the Jewish Christians for move away from works and more towards grace. Lets continue with verse 2

Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

And this will we do, if God permit.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So this passage is not talking about Christians who have fallen away. It is about Jewish Christians trying to gain salvation through keeping the law when Christ has paid for their sins on the Cross. It is all about context. No where else in this passage does it discuss those who have left the faith. Furthermore, any interpretation that this passage says that those who left the faith can never come back would clearly contradict Jesus’s message in the parable of the Prodigal son.

Another passage that has been quoted to me is 1 John 2:19 which reads

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I am honestly confused as to why this passage is used to say those who have left the Christian faith were never really saved. All you have to do is read verse 18 for context

This passage is not about those who left the faith but rather it is about false teachers and false prophets.

Mathew 7:21-23 is another passage they have quoted to me

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Again as before, read this in context look at verse 15

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

This is a warning about false prophets and false teachers. Not about those who left the Christian faith.

Now lets take a look at one last example. FranksVoice.

First I would like to acknowledge his video apology for the harsh things he said about TheWoodsofJordan a link to that apology is below.

In his video, Atheists were never saved, he defined Christians as those who had a relationship with Jesus. You can know the bible, attend church every weekend, and put money in the offering plate, but if you did not have a relationship with Jesus, then you were never really saved.

The problem with that logic is this. If you define a Christian as someone who has a relationship with Jesus then that would mean that Frank is not a Christian. See atheists do not believe in a god, we do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead. We do not believe that the holy spirit lives inside every believer. We do not believe there is a god in heaven listening to our prayers. We don’t believe because we don’t see any evidence that a god exists

Furthermore we don’t believe you have a relationship with Jesus. When you pray, you are just talking to yourself. Now, how can I explain answered prayers. Easy like this. Good things happen and bad things happen. Now when I went to church, my pastor taught us that when we pray, we should pray for specifics. Pray in such a way that only God could pull it off. We didn’t do the wishy washy type prayers, such as God if it is in your will, and if you are not too busy can you please aid the surgeoens hand and hopefully Louise will make it through her hand surgery ok.

No we prayed for miracles. Things such as God please heal Louise’s hand so she doesn’t need surgery. We didn’t treat god like a Genie or anything but we believed that god was all powerful and was able to great things. Now granted we never saw an amputee get healed but we did see some pretty cool things. Even myself I had a few of my prayers answered that at the time I concluded that only God could have done it. One such example was when I was a truck driver and I had driven for the company for a few years and I asked God to bless me with a new truck. Now the new trucks went out to the senior drivers. Yet I asked God to make it so the company would give one of the new trucks to me.

Well one day I was bringing my rig into the shop for maintaince when something went wrong and my truck needed some serious work. At the same time there was a load that had to get to Chicago and I was the only one available to do the trip. There was only one available truck. A new one. Thus the company assigned me the new rig and in about 20 mintues I moved my bags from the old one to the new one. At the time I concluded this was an answered prayer, but looking back, it just happened.

I could spend the next few hours listing off every answered prayer of mine, but in the end that would be a really boring video. I see no evidence for God and the answered prayers are just like the unanswered prayers. Life happens.

So was I a Christian, yes. Did I have a relationship with God? No, but that is because God is not real and therefore no Christian has a relationship with God.

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